WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:
So please explain how your warped reasoning arrives at the conclusion that these two blank order blanks are in any way incriminating of Lee Oswald?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The answer should be blatantly obvious even to most CTers.....
1.) Many (most) Internet CTers do not believe Oswald purchased any rifle at all from Klein's Sporting Goods.
2.) Therefore, via such a cockeyed belief, those CTers should find it at least a tad bit unusual for Mr. Oswald to have had any blank order forms from Klein's Sporting Goods Company among his possessions on 11/23/63.
When examined by a reasonable person (which automatically eliminates Walter Cakebread from contention), those two blank Klein's forms being found in Ruth Paine's garage provide additional (albeit peripheral) circumstantial evidence linking Lee Oswald to the mail-order company in Chicago that mailed Oswald/(Hidell) the weapon that would ultimately be used in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 to assassinate America's 35th Chief Executive.
Get the basic connection now, Walter?
WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:
I asked you to explain what USE Lee would have for order blanks SIX MONTHS after he had already ordered a rifle??
Is this question too difficult for you??
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Well, Walt, it would seem as though Oswald might have been considering ordering something else from Klein's in the future.
But since you don't think the blank Klein's order forms help to incriminate Oswald in even the slightest peripheral way, then I assume, therefore, that you DO concede that those two blank forms found in Ruth's garage were NOT "planted" there by anybody. Correct?
Because if they WERE planted, then it was, according to you, a futile and useless planting effort by the "Let's Frame Oswald" conspiracy team. Right?
WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:
Don't be so presumptive. I absolutely do believe the cops planted those two order blanks.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
What for?
You've said you think those order forms do NOTHING to make Oswald look guiltier. So why did somebody want to plant them? Just for the fun of breaking into Ruth Paine's garage?
WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:
Mr Von Pea Brain,
Isn't it true that Lee packed his bags in September? And doesn't September come five months after April? And isn't there an April photo that shows Lee with a Mannlicher Carcano?
Why would Lee want any order blanks AFTER he ordered the merchandise?? Did he pack his bags in September when Marina left New Orleans??
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I see that Walt has overdosed on his Thick Pills today.
Of course Oswald's bags were packed long after he bought the rifle, Walt. Everybody knows this. Duh.
But--SO WHAT?
Oswald obviously kept a couple of extra Klein's ordering coupons for possible future use.
Is that so impossible to believe in your CT world, Walter?
JOHNNY HARTLEY SAID:
Obviously.
Having shot at Walker, it is only natural that he would keep avoidable evidence that would link him directly to the place where he had bought the gun.
It is not like a guy capable of carrying this out would have thought of using a reliable, untraceable second hand or stolen gun, instead of an unreliable, traceable gun, is it?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Well, Johnny, we know he kept the GUN ITSELF after the Walker shooting. Only fringe CTers believe otherwise. So his keeping a couple of Klein's ads isn't too brazen considering the fact he hung onto the rifle itself too.
MARTIN WEIDMANN SAID:
Are those two blank order forms mentioned on the DPD lists of items recovered during the searches of Ruth Paine's house?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The two Klein's forms are mentioned in the 12/2/63 DPD report here.
The Klein's ads are also mentioned in this FD-302 report filed by FBI agents Bookhout and Carlson on 12/2/63, with the agents clearly indicating that the two Klein's ads were found in Ruth Paine's house on November 23rd.
And Detective Richard Stovall testified to having found the two Klein's ads "in the same box with the photographs".
MARTIN WEIDMANN SAID:
Thanks for that, David, but it's not really the answer to my question.
Back to my original question....
Around noon on Saturday 11/23/63 a search warrant is issued for a search of Ruth Paine's house. When the officers return they are required to fill out a report detailing the result of the search and an inventory of all recovered items has to be made. We know such a list exists...... but (and this was my question) are the Klein's order forms mentioned in that list?
My second question, based upon the information you have provided, would now be: Are we really to believe and accept that these three officers found those Klein's order forms and some other items during a search on 11/23/63 but waited 9 days before they handed them to the DPD property clerk on 12/02/63?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I don't have the slightest idea whether the 2 Klein's ads are listed in an inventory from Nov. 23.
I looked at the Dallas Municipal Archives site and I couldn't find a Nov. 23 list with the Klein's ads.
But I provided multiple links verifying where and when the Klein's clippings were found. If you want to disregard that evidence because it comes from Dec. 3 reports instead of Nov. 23, go ahead and disregard it. But I'm not going to.
Being found in a "box" as the Klein's ads were, it's possible that those two ads were included in a reference to one of the various boxes that were found, which didn't include a detailed itemizing of each item in the box.
E.G., there's a reference in this document to "1 Black and grey metal box...letters, etc."
I'm just guessing here, yes, but the box containing the Klein's ads might have been mentioned in some of those DPD inventory lists, without making mention of every last scrap of paper contained therein. And then, later, the ads were singled out for attention in early December (when the significance of "Klein's" became more widely known among the police officers).
WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:
The dept 472 indicated that the order blank came from the NOVEMBER 1963 issue of Guns and Ammo magazine.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I see no "Dept 472" shown in either Klein's ad in question. I see "Dept 425" in the top order blank; and "Dept 222" in the bottom one. Where's the "472"? ....
WALT CAKEBREAD SAID:
Oh that's right.....The department number 472 (Nov 63 issue of Guns & Ammo) was on the order blank that the DPD used when they said it was the ad that Lee had used to order the rifle. DPD Chief Jesse Curry published it on page 99 of his book, JFK Assassination File.
I'll check my files and tell you what magazines the department numbers 425 and 222 came from. The Feb 1963 issue of American Rifleman used the dept #358. Dept #425 came from the June issue of American Rifleman.
Kinda strange.....Lee didn't subscribe to any gun magazines, and he wasn't a member of the NRA. So where would he get these order blanks?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Possibly Adrian Alba's garage. Oswald would go in there and shoot the breeze with Alba and talk about guns. I'd bet that Alba supplied Lee with some magazines from time to time too.
Or: Oswald could have just simply bought some magazines at any store that sold them.
I guess that possibility isn't on Walt's radar, though. If it isn't sinister in nature, Walt ignores it.
MARTIN WEIDMANN SAID:
Btw...the significance of "Klein's" involvement was already clear on Saturday 11/23/63 when it was already reported (in amazingly great detail I might add) by WBKB TV in Chicago, as you yourself have shown in the clip [you] provided.
Amazing how quickly they got hold of all that information...... they know not only the make and number of the rifle, but also the Hidell alias and Oswald's ownership of the P.O. box in Dallas..... go figure!
What happened? Did the FBI hand out press releases every hour to provide the latest results of their investigation?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
No, but the DPD's Jesse Curry was on TV constantly on 11/23/63 giving out all kinds of information and details, including most of the details about "the order letter" (as Police Chief Curry referred to it; see video below) that was sent by Oswald to Klein's to purchase the rifle.
Curry, however, didn't mention the name "Klein's" in his many 11/23/63 hallway news conferences, but he did say the rifle had been bought from a "mail-order house in Chicago". Curry also reveals the "Hidell" alias that Oswald used and also tells the press that the rifle had, indeed, been mailed to a P.O. Box that was owned by "our suspect, Oswald".
The "Klein's" part of it might have been mentioned by other radio and TV outlets that day, however. Hence, the people at WBKB-TV in Chicago had plenty to work with by early evening on November 23rd as they tried to track down still more details pertaining to the rifle that was purchased from a company in their city.
MARTIN WEIDMANN SAID:
Thanks for that, David....
Kinda destroys your earlier claim, doesn't it? ....
Quote from David Von Pein:
"I'm just guessing here, yes, but the box containing the Klein's ads might have been mentioned in some of those DPD inventory lists, without making mention of every last scrap of paper contained therein. And then, later, the ads were singled out for attention in early December (when the significance of "Klein's" became more widely known among the police officers)."
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Point taken, Martin.
But sometimes even police officers and FBI men are in the dark about some things until much later. Take the FBI's 12/9/63 report, for instance. They just totally ignored the autopsy report for the most part. Which could indicate that the FBI men hadn't even read the autopsy report as of December 9th.
And then there's the FBI head man, J. Edgar Hoover himself, who was apparently completely out of the loop on many important aspects of the case as late as November 29th when he talked to LBJ.
So, things do slip through the cracks.
MARTIN WEIDMANN SAID:
Oh, I agree that where people work mistakes are made and the flow of information could often be better.
But if we get back to basics..... Stovall, Adamcik and Rose obtained a search warrant for Ruth Paine's house. They search the place (and miss for instance the BY [Backyard Photos] camera) and then take everything they found back to the station, where they turn over the items found to the property clerk and an inventory list is made.
Two days later, when - as we have seen earlier - the name Klein's had already been widely reported by the media, Rose writes two supplement offense reports; one about the blanket that allegedly had contained the rifle and the other about finding several papers and documents including two BY photos......but somehow there is still no mention of the Klein's coupons.
That only comes 9 days after the search..... Now, ask yourself this; if the Klein's coupons had been in the metal boxes found at Ruth Paine's house and mentioned on the inventory list (which means they were already turned over to the property clerk) why [would] there have been any need to hand the coupons over to the property clerk again?
We know it happened, right? The coupons were handed in nine days later, but why did that happen, when they simply could have said they were part of the content of the metal boxes and thus already in evidence storage from day one?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yes, I see what you're saying, Martin. And I have no specific answer to explain the delay in reporting the two Klein's ads. But let's look at this from another perspective and ask an important question.....
Why would the Dallas Police Department have wanted to suddenly plant a couple of blank Klein's Sporting Goods order forms among Lee Harvey Oswald's belongings several days after Oswald had been murdered?
Seems to me that any "planting" of evidence by the cops would have been performed while Oswald was still alive and breathing--i.e., at a time when the police doing the alleged planting would have had every reason to think Oswald would be going to trial for President Kennedy's murder.
What possible purpose would be served by planting the two Klein's ads on December 2nd? What did the DPD gain by planting the Klein's clippings eight days after the person they were allegedly attempting to frame was killed? They certainly weren't going to be able to use the Klein's ads at Oswald's trial, because he's already graveyard dead.
Was the DPD just trying to help out the Warren Commission by adding two needless Klein's coupons to the evidence pile?
That type of thinking doesn't make sense to me....at all.
David Von Pein
November 28-29, 2014
