==================================================
As can be seen in Warren Commission Exhibit #903 (pictured below), the "Single-Bullet Theory" trajectory works just fine. In fact, it works absolutely perfectly. Which would be virtually impossible if MULTIPLE bullets had actually done the damage to the two victims (JFK & John Connally) that the Warren Commission said was very likely caused by only one single bullet (CE399).
And the pointer/rod in Exhibit 903 is just where the autopsy photo of John Kennedy's back shows the wound to be located, with the exit wound exactly at the "tie knot" via CE903, just exactly where JFK sustained damage from the flight of a bullet.
And look at the angle -- DOWNWARD (17 DEGREES), FROM BACK TO FRONT. Without a doubt:
Also: When CTers attempt to use the "opposite angle" photos that are similar in nature to CE903 [ONE, TWO, THREE], which show Arlen Specter holding the rod a little above where he is holding it in CE903 itself....
....the CTers who claim that something is "fishy" or "misleading" are doing so without ever having determined exactly for what purpose those other photos were taken.*
* Oh, I know they were taken the same day as CE903, but it's unfair to say that they depict the Warren Commission's SBT trajectory precisely, because those opposite-angle pictures are not official Warren Commission exhibits like CE903. [RELATED LINK]
Let's listen to the testimony of the man who took the photo we see in CE903 (Lyndal Shaneyfelt):
ARLEN SPECTER -- "I now hand you a photograph which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 903 and ask you if you know who the photographer was?"
LYNDAL L. SHANEYFELT -- "Yes; I took this photograph."
MR. SPECTER -- "When was that photograph taken?"
MR. SHANEYFELT -- "It was taken Sunday afternoon, May 24, 1964."
MR. SPECTER -- "Is there a white string which is apparent in the background of that photograph?"
MR. SHANEYFELT -- "That is correct."
MR. SPECTER -- "What is the angle of declination of that string?"
MR. SHANEYFELT -- "That string was placed along the wall by the surveyor at an angle of 17 degrees-43'-30''." ....
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0055b.htm
MR. SPECTER -- "Did the surveyor make that placement in your presence?"
MR. SHANEYFELT -- "He did."
MR. SPECTER -- "Were the stand-ins for President Kennedy and Governor Connally positioned in the same relative positions as those occupied by President Kennedy and Governor Connally depicted in the Zapruder films?"
MR. SHANEYFELT -- "Yes; these positions were approximately the position of the President and Governor Connally in the Zapruder films in the area around frame 225 as they go behind the signboard and as they emerge from the signboard."
MR. SPECTER -- "Was the rod which is held in that photograph positioned at an angle as closely parallel to the white string as it could be positioned?"
MR. SHANEYFELT -- "Yes."
MR. SPECTER -- "And through what positions did that rod pass?"
MR. SHANEYFELT -- "The rod passed through a position on the back of the stand-in for the President at a point approximating that of the entrance wound, exited along about the knot of the tie or the button of the coat or button of the shirt, and the end of the rod was inserted in the entrance hole on the back of Governor Connally's coat which was being worn by the stand-in for Governor Connally."
MR. SPECTER -- "And was Governor Connally's stand-in seated in the position where the point of exit would have been below the right nipple at the approximate point described by Governor Connally's doctors?"
MR. SHANEYFELT -- "That is correct."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shaneyf2.htm
--------------------------------
Anti-SBT conspiracy theorists simply cannot fight the "SBT perfection" that exists in CE903....
As mentioned by Shaneyfelt in his Warren Commission testimony, the stand-in representing Governor John B. Connally [JBC] is wearing the same jacket that JBC wore on 11/22/63....and that pointer/rod being held by Mr. Specter, which is coming out of JFK's tie knot, is being placed right into the exact bullet hole in that jacket in CE903.
CE903 shows:
1.) Downward (back-to-front) angle of the bullet
path (17.72 degrees) = Perfect. [ADDENDUM]
2.) Upper-back JFK wound = Perfect.
3.) JFK exit wound at tie knot = Perfect.
4.) Entry wound on JBC's back = Perfect (with Specter's metal rod being
jammed into the same hole on JBC's exact jacket where a bullet just happened
to penetrate Connally's suit jacket on 11/22/63, by gosh!).
5.) Exit wound on JBC's chest (under right nipple) = Perfect via CE903 as well.
Sum Total:
No "zig-zag" path.
No "magic" bullet.
No "SBT conspiracy".
In short: CE903 = S.B.T. PERFECTION!
--------------------------------
PAGE 107 OF THE WARREN COMMISSION REPORT:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0066a.htm
--------------------------------
MORE ON THE SIGNIFICANCE OF CE903:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/bf3ae3c6c0993e13
--------------------------------
David Von Pein
March 26 2007
================================
RELATED DISCUSSIONS....
DAVID VON PEIN SAID THIS.
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Yeah, it was so perfect that neither Dale Myers nor a TV production could duplicate it.
This SB [Single Bullet] "perfection" never happened. And Specter knew it. Which is why he could not explain it to Fonzi.
It exists in DVP's mind.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The SBT bullet path is pretty much "explained" right there within CE903. It's right there in the picture. All you have to do is look at it and comprehend what it's telling you.
And even though a little "margin of error" must be granted Arlen Specter and the Warren Commission with respect to what we see in CE903 (because the 17.72-degree downward angle is, indeed, just the AVERAGE angle between Zapruder frames 210 and 225, plus there's the fact that the car being used in CE903 is not the SS-100-X limo), there are two things seen in CE903 that don't require any "margin of error" --- the "tie knot" exit wound location in JFK's throat and the entry hole in John Connally's back (with Specter's metal rod being inserted directly into the bullet hole in Connally's jacket---a jacket which the stand-in is wearing in CE903).
So, via the CE903 visual demonstration, if a bullet proceeding downward at an angle of 17.72 degrees (aligning perfectly with a "Z210-Z225" angle from the "Oswald window") were to exit JFK's throat at the tie knot, it would then proceed on that same angle directly into the back of Governor Connally in exactly the place where we know a bullet DID enter Connally's upper right back.
That's a pretty impressive demonstration if you ask me. I wonder what the odds are of the Warren Commission being able to re-create such a nearly perfect SBT demonstration and yet NOT have such a demonstration represent the truth of what actually happened---even though the angle from the known sniper's window was right where it should be if the shot occurred at around Z217.5 AND the re-created bullet path travelled exactly where a bullet really did strike President Kennedy and John Connally on 11/22/63?
I wouldn't want to take those odds to Vegas if I was an anti-SBT conspiracy believer.
And yet I'm supposed to believe the CTers who tell me that two (or probably THREE) different bullets lined themselves up beautifully so that Arlen Specter could later present this impressive "one bullet" exhibit to the world. Talk about incredibly good luck for Mr. Specter & Company! ....
Below is a high-quality, zoomed-in version of Commission Exhibit 903 (photo credit to Pat Speer)....
LAWRENCE SCHNAPF SAID:
Stay tuned for big news later this fall that will debunk the SBT beyond a reasonable doubt.
CLIFF VARNELL SAID:
How is treating a redundancy like a revelation helpful?
Seriously, I don't get it.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Because JFK conspiracy theorists need to regularly reinforce (in their own minds) their anti-SBT beliefs, as they continue to pretend (year after year) that the Single-Bullet Theory is "impossible", a "fantasy", and the "wet dream" of Pennsylvania's Arlen Specter.
Deep down, though, virtually all veteran conspiracy theorists have got to know, of course, that the SBT is the only possible scenario that fits the sum total of evidence in the JFK case (how could they possibly not know that fact after studying the evidence for umpteen years?), but they've been aboard the "SBT Is Impossible" train for so long now, they can't ever disembark from it.
FYI....
The Ultimate In SBT Denial can be found HERE.
MICHAEL CLARK SAID:
As Colonel Potter used to say....."Horse Hockey".
It is quite the opposite of course, David. It is you who are wedded to a false story; and are so deep in the muck that you would be hard-pressed to free yourself.
Most of us don't really know for sure what happened. We are trying to figure it out. There is no story to be wedded to. We are looking for that story.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
If you can't figure out that the Single-Bullet Theory is the truth, I feel sorry for your poor investigative skills.
As Vincent Bugliosi said in his book, the SBT is "so obvious that a child could author it".
(How very true, Vince.)
----------------
[Quoting Vince Bugliosi...]
"From the first moment that I heard that [Arlen] Specter had come up with the single-bullet theory, it made very little sense to me since the theory was so obvious that a child could author it. .... Since [the members of the Warren Commission staff] all knew that the bullet, fired from Kennedy's right rear, had passed through soft tissue in Kennedy's body on a straight line, and that Connally was seated to the president's left front, the bullet, after emerging from Kennedy's body, would have had to go on and hit Connally for the simple reason it had nowhere else to go. How could it be that among many bright lawyers earnestly focusing their minds on this issue, only Specter saw it? .... When I asked [Norman Redlich on September 6, 2005] if, indeed, Arlen Specter was the sole author of the single-bullet theory, his exact words were, "No, we all came to this conclusion simultaneously." When I asked him whom he meant by "we," he said, "Arlen, myself, Howard Willens, David Belin, and Mel Eisenberg." .... I don't know about you folks, but I'm inclined to take what Redlich told me to the bank. My sense is that Redlich, who by almost all accounts worked harder on the case than anyone else, was a team player only interested in doing his job well. .... If I have done a disservice to Specter in what I have written above, I apologize to him. But I did give him an opportunity to respond to this issue [via a letter sent to Specter on June 24, 2005], and he declined."
-- Vincent Bugliosi; Pages 302-304 of Endnotes in "Reclaiming History"
EDDY BAINBRIDGE SAID:
Mr Von Pein,
I always read your posts with interest as you back up your comments with evidence. I have studied an anatomically correct model of the neck. There is no gap for a bullet to pass through, it is built rather like a suit of armour. It can of course flex, but flexion does not result in a gap appearing at any angle (I tried this with the model).
With this in mind, please could you point me to evidence that either shows the damage to the neck bones caused by a bullet fired from the TBSD, or provide an alternative explanation for the bullet path if it didn't pass through the neck bones. Thank you in advance.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Hi Eddy,
If the bullet that entered JFK's upper back truly had no possible way of exiting the front of his body without hitting some bones (as most conspiracy theorists believe), then I kind of doubt the three autopsy surgeons would have said this in their final report....do you? ....
"The missile contused the strap muscles of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and made its exit through the anterior surface of the neck. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no bony structures in its path through the body." -- JFK's Autopsy Report (Page 6); Warren Report, Page 543
----------------------------
There is also this conclusion reached by the Clark Panel in 1968....
"The other bullet struck the decedent's back at the right side of the base of the neck between the shoulder and spine and emerged from the front of his neck near the midline. The possibility that this bullet might have followed a pathway other than one passing through the site of the tracheotomy wound was considered. No evidence for this was found. There is a track between the two cutaneous wounds as indicated by subcutaneous emphysema and small metallic fragments on the X-rays and the contusion of the apex of the right lung and laceration of the trachea described in the Autopsy Report. In addition, any path other than one between the two cutaneous wounds would almost surely have been intercepted by bone and the X-ray films show no bony damage in the thorax or neck." -- From Clark Panel Report
Replay (for emphasis)....
"There is a track between the two cutaneous wounds..."
Another interesting part of the 1968 Clark Panel Report is the portion of the report in which the Clark Panel concludes that the bullet hole in President Kennedy's throat was located 3.5 centimeters LOWER (anatomically) than the bullet wound in the President's upper back....
"There is an elliptical penetrating wound of the skin of the back located approximately 15 cm. medial to the right acromial process, 5 cm. lateral to the mid-dorsal line and 14 cm. below the right mastoid process. This wound lies approximately 5.5 cm. below a transverse fold in the skin of the neck. This fold can also be seen in a lateral view of the neck which shows an anterior tracheotomy wound. This view makes it possible to compare the levels of these two wounds in relation to that of the horizontal plane of the body. .... The center of the circular wound [in the front of the neck] is situated approximately 9 cm. below the transverse fold in the skin of the neck described in a preceding paragraph. This indicates that the bullet which produced the two wounds followed a course downward and to the left in its passage through the body." -- From Clark Panel Report
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Does anybody pivot like Davey?
So you are saying that there was no damage to any of the bones in the neck, correct?
From David Mantik, "The JFK Assassination: Cause for Doubt" in Assassination Science:
"...the bullet necessarily would have had to pass directly through the C7 transverse process...The corresponding cervical fracture, which should have been severe from such a direct hit, is not seen. It is also useful to recall that the cervical transverse processes present a very tight barrier in the vertical direction, so that this argument is independent of the vertical level in the cervical spine. The proposed transit trajectory therefore seems purely imaginary--at both the cervical and upper thoracic levels. [Dr. James J.] Humes was admittedly ignorant of the cross sectional anatomy, which is pertinent to this proposed trajectory."
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Over the years, 16 different doctors (mostly forensic pathologists, not counting the Rockefeller Commission physicians) have said the bullet transited JFK's body. That includes the 3 autopsy doctors, plus the 4 Clark Panel physicians, and all 9 members of the HSCA's Forensic Pathology Panel (including, incredibly, even Cyril Wecht).
If you, James DiEugenio, want to ignore all 16 of those doctors and sweep their "transiting bullet" conclusion into the gutter, go ahead. (You already have, many times, of course.) But pardon me if I don't join you.
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
If you buy Specter, Humes and Boswell and their Single Bullet Fantasy, that means you also buy the Rydberg drawings.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Not at all, as I talk about HERE and HERE and HERE.
"The Rydberg drawings are awful. I've said that for years. The biggest mistake made by the Warren Commission was their failure to examine (in detail) the autopsy photographs and X-rays. That was a huge blunder on their part, no doubt about it. And that's why we have to be satisfied (as far as the Warren Report and the 26 volumes are concerned anyway) with those awful Rydberg drawings, which have caused more harm than good for decades, prompting even more people to scream "Cover Up" at the top of their lungs. But when the autopsy photos did finally become available to the masses (albeit in bootleg form), we can see that the WC was right anyway --- i.e., JFK was shot only from BEHIND --- just as the autopsy said." -- DVP; July 2017
------------------
"It's silly to rely too heavily on only the drawings....either Dox's or the ultra-crappy Rydberg ones done for the WC, which only serve to confuse more than clarify. And Dox's, while much better than Rydberg's are still off a little, and the Dox drawings weren't even necessary at all. The HSCA had full access to the actual pictures of JFK....why they needed some drawings on top of the pics I have never understood. I guess to supposedly provide better clarity of the inshoots/outshoots...but, as mentioned, all they did was muddy waters that would have been much less muddy if the WC and HSCA had kept the damn artist renderings out of the official record (IMHO)." -- DVP; July 2008
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Do you take notice of the fact that the autopsy report was written in its final draft by Humes AFTER Oswald was killed? Do you also note that Humes lied about the destruction of the first draft and where and why it happened? Do you note that the final draft appears to have been done in Admiral Galloway's office?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
http://jfk-archives/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-78.html#Dr-Humes
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
Sometimes Davey sound like John McCloy. When the credibility of the WR was crumbling in 1967, CBS gave McCloy all kinds of face time to pile on further lies with the public about how these critics were poking holes in their Swiss Cheese case against Oswald. One of the pieces of BS he used was that the Warren Commission did not have the autopsy materials. That is the pics and x rays. This was false. They did. (Gerald McKnight, Breach of Trust, p. 171)
Now according to Davey, these would have been the salvation of the case, right? But Specter arranged the Rydberg drawings to be drawn up without those materials, and without even the pathologists' notes. Why?
Maybe because Specter knew that the real pics showed the entrance in the back, and not the neck? And the face sheet was even worse in that regard? Therefore, this would create an "artistic" problem for Rydberg?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And the CE903 picture---with Specter right there in the photo!---shows the entry wound where again??
Answer:
In the BACK (not the neck).
Therefore, Specter obviously didn't need the wound to be raised up into JFK's neck, did he? (When will that myth ever croak?)
DAVID JOSEPHS SAID:
Right to left shot leaving JFK's throat traveling 20 degrees off center ... even if possible, a shot would hit JC [John Connally] on the left side of his body, not the right armpit.
But hey, nice try at confusing the issue.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Nice try, David Josephs, at pretending to know with 100% certainty the EXACT TO-THE-MILLIMETER body position of Governor Connally when he was shot (which is something NOBODY knows with 100% certainty).
And, of course, the Warren Commission (via CE903) didn't need a curving or "magical" metal rod to get the bullet to proceed straight from JFK's throat wound to the bullet hole in Governor Connally's jacket. So, obviously, that bullet path was a DOABLE one without any need for any zigging or zagging at all.
But just do what almost all other CTers do, DJ --- ignore CE903.
RON BULMAN SAID:
The "single" bullet, a single lone nut shooter. How can anyone believe this if they study the issue?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Because the evidence clearly indicates that a "lone nut shooter" (Lee Harvey Oswald) committed the crime with Carcano Rifle C2766.
And the evidence certainly indicates the high probability that three shots were fired by that lone nut shooter, with two of those bullets striking the two victims.
And I've never been able to figure out how the anti-SBT CTers manage to reasonably reconcile their theory that has a separate bullet hitting John Connally in his back, even though JFK is situated directly between the shooter and the wounded portion of Connally's upper right back. [Also see the audio clip below, featuring the Warren Commission's Albert Jenner.] And then (per CTers) this separate, unimpeded bullet apparently somehow starts to tumble while in flight, having hit nothing during its flight to Governor Connally's back, causing an elongated wound.
Given all the conditions, circumstances, and the victims' positions in the car during the shooting, plus the total lack of ANY non-C2766 bullets or fragments in this murder case, it's virtually impossible for the SBT to NOT be true.
PAT SPEER SAID:
Please, David, Specter was the worst kind of fibber. I track his comments in Chapter 10 at patspeer.com and demonstrate his dishonesty a hundred times over. HE changed the description of the back wound from a wound on the back to a wound on the back of the neck AFTER studying a photo you know shows the wound to be on the back. And then fibbed his face off for forty years hoping no one would notice.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The bottom-line FACT is....Arlen Specter didn't need the wound to be raised up into the "NECK" --- and CE903 proves that fact for all time.
I, too, have wondered why Specter constantly said the word "neck" when referring to the place on JFK's body where Oswald's CE399 bullet entered. But, as CE903 shows, the bullet doesn't enter through the "neck"; it enters the upper back.
PAT SPEER SAID ALL THIS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Pat,
What's your source(s) for all your info about the super-evil Arlen Specter and Joe Ball in your last post above? (Just curious to know. Are your sources listed on your website somewhere?)
PAT SPEER SAID:
Yep. And many of them were included in my 2014 presentation on the single-bullet theory, which I presented at the 50th anniversary of the Warren Report conference in Bethesda. While the conference schedule was a mess, and my presentation was thinly attended, I did have one surprise attendee, Warren Commission counsel turned judge Burt Griffin, who quickly left the room when I presented the goods on Specter. (We later exchanged a few emails in which he kinda sorta explained his behavior. He said that no matter what I put up on the screen, he just couldn't believe that Specter would lie about anything of substance. Strangely enough, this echoes Howard Willens, who told me pretty much the same thing the year before. They just refuse to believe the WC investigation was tainted by the actions of the WC or its staff...NO MATTER what the facts show.)
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
But the long and short of it is....
It doesn't really matter what the awful Rydberg drawings depict, and it doesn't really matter whether Arlen Specter said "neck" 3000 times in his lifetime, because the Rydberg drawings are trumped (and always will be) by the "live action" scene demonstrated in CE903 that you hate so much, which PROVES that Specter & Company did NOT raise the back wound into JFK's "neck".
And I don't see how anyone can say the photo we see in Commission Exhibit 903 is rigged or "phony" in some fashion. It shows the angle that leads back to the 6th floor (17d 43m 30s), and it shows the bullet exiting exactly where everyone agrees a bullet wound was located on JFK's body (the tie knot/trach wound area), and it shows the rod being placed into the known bullet hole in John Connally's jacket.
Pat, don't those THREE things lining up perfectly in an "SBT" fashion (forgetting for the moment the precise "back wound" location seen in CE903) strike you as being rather amazing and incredible IF, as you assert, the Single-Bullet Theory is a pure fairy tale INVENTION of the Warren Commission?
How did Specter manage that amazing SBT-like trickery and how did he manage to manipulate his METAL ROD (which has no "zig-zag" attachment on it that I can see) so that it could be placed in a 17.72-degree downward angle and have it go straight from Kennedy's throat wound directly into Connally's bullet hole in his jacket?
You must admit that those THREE "SBT"-like things I just talked about are impressively duplicated in CE903....wouldn't you agree, Pat?
EDDY BAINBRIDGE SAID:
You have chosen one line of argument, your argument lends weight to the premise, about the weight of a grain of sand.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You must be joking with the "grain of sand" comment.
Everything points to the SBT being correct. Why CTers refuse to acknowledge this "SBT pattern" only leaves me scratching my head. (After all, as I've said many times before, even WITH the SBT in place, those same CTers can still pretend that their "conspiracy" existed, via their make-believe frontal shot to JFK's head, the "Double Oswalds" all over the place, the "fake" backyard photos, etc., etc. to CT infinity.)
....There's the incredible "SBT-like" pattern of the wounds on the two victims.
....No bullets inside JFK's body.
....CE399 (from LHO's rifle) found on Connally's stretcher. [More on that controversial topic here.]
....The Zapruder Film shows the victims reacting at precisely the same time.
....Both the Warren Commission and the HSCA endorsed the SBT, plus the 3 autopsy surgeons got the ball rolling by concluding, without any hesitation via the wording in the autopsy report, that the bullet "made its exit through the anterior surface of the neck".
"Grain of sand" indeed. Don't make me laugh. It's more like a tsunami of pro-SBT common sense and evidence (when assessing ALL of the facts surrounding the shooting of JFK and Governor Connally).
REPLAY....
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
No bullets inside JFK's body.
CLIFF VARNELL SAID:
Either the rounds were removed prior to the autopsy, or the autopsists were correct when they speculated JFK was hit with a high tech round that wouldn't show up in the autopsy.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Or....
The bullet simply went right through the victim.**
** And isn't it amazing that there just happened to be another bullet hole on the opposite side of JFK's body to meet the "SBT" needs of Mr. Specter, et al?
Has any conspiracy theorist in history ever made this basic observation?....
Boy, those assassins were sure a bunch of lucky sons of bitches when the guy who shot JFK in the throat from the front managed to hit Kennedy in exactly the right spot on his body so that (later on) the official investigators could utilize that entry wound in the throat as the point of exit for the SBT bullet. And then the multiple assassins got even luckier when the upper-back bullet and the bullet that entered the throat both decided not to exit the body and then both of those bullets vanished into puffs of smoke before either of those bullets (which obviously were still inside JFK's body when he was inside Trauma Room No. 1 at Parkland Hospital) could be seen by any non-conspirator.
Can anyone truly believe that such incredible good fortune could possibly have existed amongst the (alleged) multiple shooters who were (allegedly) firing bullets at President Kennedy on 11/22/63?
(And yet CTers have the gall to tell me that I am the one who believes in "Magic Bullets". Oy vey!)
DAVID VON PEIN ALSO SAID:
Addendum....
My above comments reminded me of this great observation made by an LNer named Bud yesterday at another forum....
"The retards [i.e., conspiracy theorists] hate Occam's Razor, because in almost every case they opt for complex and fantastic explanations. Not once or twice. Not even dozens of times. HUNDREDS of times. This is why they won't put their ideas out there. Think I'm exaggerating? Just look at one thing, the BY [backyard] photo. Two possibilities, fake or genuine. They opt for the fantastic one. Now "faked" comes with a whole truckload of fantastic subsets --- getting competent people on board, acquiring a suitable "head" to use, etc. Now there are two possibilities why it was among Oswald's possessions, a simple one, it was one of his possessions or a fantastic one, it was planted. Again, the tards opt for the complex fantastic one. Marina said she took a photo of Oswald holding the rifle. The simple answer is that this is true, the complex and fantastic one is that someone put her up to lying about this. Again the tards go for the fantastic. Before they are done with this single issue they have posited an impossibly fantastic scenario involving dozens of people." -- Bud; June 30, 2018
| More -----> |  |
RAY MITCHAM SAID:
If the coat and shirt weren't bunched up, then according to your arguments, the rod couldn't line up the way you say it does. You want it both ways, David. Your "perfect alignment" is only in your mind.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And you, Ray, being a CTer, require absolute perfect to-the-millimeter perfection in a Single-Bullet Theory re-creation before you'll even begin to consider it valid. But, realistically, it's just not reasonable to expect an event like this to be able to be re-created right down to the last inch.
In my opinion, however, CE903 comes very close to SBT perfection (even though I realize that the 17.72-degree angle isn't exactly right, since it's an angle for the equivalent of Z217.5 and not what I believe is the true SBT Z-Film frame of Z224).
So, if you want to say I "want it both ways", okay. But the Z217.5 angle seen in CE903 is so incredibly close to being "perfect", why would I quibble with it and raise hell with Mr. Specter & Company (especially since I fully realize that complete and total "perfection" is not a reasonable expectation)?
PAT SPEER SAID:
DVP, I just looked at the page you've linked to [this one] in an effort to embarrass James [Gordon]. It is clear from that page that [it] is you who should be embarrassed. You use Bud's comments from another site to insult the members of this site, and make the oft-repeated but nevertheless long-discredited argument CT's just need to believe the SBT is false because they need to believe Oswald was a patsy. (This avoids that a high percentage of the CT's not active on the internet believe Oswald was a shooter and that their doubts about the SBT have nothing to do with any supposed affection for Oswald.)
In any event, it is clear from this thread (and your link) that it is the SBT-pushers who can't let go of their core beliefs, and become abusive when pushed into a corner. Your quoting of the abuse of the members of this forum by others does not hide that you are pushing their position, and that it is you providing the abuse. And this at the same time you push such mind-bogglingly wrong positions such as CE 903 proving the viability of the SBT, when it does not, and other photos taken at that same re-enactment prove it to have been a deliberate deception.
And that, in any event, CE 903 and the re-enactment itself, was purported to have proved the accuracy of the Rydberg drawings, which even you acknowledge to have been inaccurate.
(I suppose you didn't think I'd notice that you ran for the river like Rapunzel with her hair on fire.)
After Thomas Kelley showed Specter a photo of the back wound, which proved the wound to be on the back, inches below the base of the neck, Specter had Kelley testify that the chalk mark used in the re-enactment was based on the Rydberg drawings (which showed the wound to be at the base of the neck), and then corrected Kelley when he said the wound was on the back. Specter then had Shaneyfelt testify that CE 903 supported this as well, and put into the Warren Report that this further supported the accuracy of the Rydberg drawings. And this even though he had photos (which were then hidden in the archives) proving that the trajectory rod passed inches above the chalk mark.
Now, if a CT had behaved like this, you would quote your hero Bugliosi all day long about what a terrible person he was. But since this was Specter, the creator of your beloved SBT, a myth central to your core values, you can't even bring yourself to look at the facts.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Simple Fact --- JFK conspiracy theorists have NEVER (not once) offered up any kind of a valid and reasonable and sensible and believable alternative to the Warren Commission's Single-Bullet Theory....and they never will, since the SBT is the correct solution (by a mile)---with or without the awful Rydberg drawings.
It's easy to criticize something. Everything is always open to criticism. But when it comes to coming up with an explanation for what DID happen (if it wasn't the SBT), the CTers have NOTHING to offer. All they're able to come up with is: The SBT is BS! But I want to hear their "conspiracy" alternative, step by step and bullet by bullet.
And without a bullet exiting JFK's throat (and nearly 100% of Internet CTers don't think any bullet exited from Kennedy's throat), then the CTers have no choice but to offer up the proverbial "Two Bullets Entered JFK But Failed To Exit And Then Disappeared Or Were Dug Out By Evil Plotters" gambit. (Maybe that silly theory is the main reason I never hear any CTer offer up a detailed explanation of what happened. Because who would want to intentionally embarrass themselves by placing such lunacy on the table for anyone's consideration?)
And if anybody thinks that it's the LNer in the equation (meaning: DVP) who suffered the "embarrassment" at the hands of James R. Gordon and other assorted anti-SBTers in this 2015 discussion, then their denial is even more serious and advanced than even I had thought. Because that discussion illustrates---more than I've ever encountered before---the lengths to which some conspiracists will sink in order to avoid the "SBT" signs that exist in the Zapruder Film.
The lame excuses I heard from various conspiracy theorists were legendary. I heard "Corrupt frames" and "Connally's merely turning to his left" and "It's only Nellie Connally's shadow that you're seeing". Anything to avoid having to admit that the film is showing John B. Connally reacting to a bullet hitting him at circa Z224. Classic Denial at its finest.
CLIFF VARNELL SAID:
First Von Pein claims there are "NEVER" valid and reasonable explanations, then he performs a drive-by sneering at two obvious possibilities which are rooted in the historical record:
1) The autopsists suspected JFK was hit with a high tech weapon which wouldn't leave any detectable metal in the body.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
And JFK was hit by TWO such "high tech" missiles, eh Varnell? TWO of them which both vanished, while leaving virtually NO DAMAGE behind in Kennedy's body??
Might as well have used a sling shot. It'd be just as effective as these make-believe "high tech" disappearing bullets that Cliff is offering up.
Plus---why wasn't the HEAD SHOT a "high tech" round also? And the round that hit Connally's wrist? Those bullets left behind metal fragments. So the assassins used two different types of bullets, eh? All the while trying to "frame" a patsy (who owns a CARCANO) in the Book Depository??
Let's pause for the laughter to die down some.....
CLIFF VARNELL SAID:
2) The FBI report on the autopsy refers to pre-autopsy surgery to the head -- raising the possibility the rounds were removed prior to the autopsy.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Cliff, of course, surely knows about the explanations given by former FBI agent James Sibert regarding the "surgery" remark made by Dr. Humes. Don't you, Cliff?....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/interview-with-james-sibert
"In a 1999 telephone conversation from his retirement home in Fort Myers, Florida, [James] Sibert told me that when the casket was opened in the autopsy room, "The president was wrapped in two sheets, one around his body, another sheet around his head." He said the sheet around the head was "soaked in blood," and when it was removed, Dr. Humes "almost immediately upon seeing the president's head—this was before the autopsy—remarked that the president had a tracheotomy and surgery of the head area." When I asked Sibert what Humes was referring to when he used the word surgery, he said, "He was referring to the large portion of the president's skull that was missing." When I asked him why he was so sure of this, he replied, "Well, if you were there, it couldn't have been more clear that that's what he was talking about. He said this as soon as he saw the president's head. He hadn't looked close-up for any evidence of surgery to the head when he said this. I'm positive that's what he was referring to."" -- Page 1060 of "Reclaiming History" by Vincent Bugliosi
CLIFF VARNELL SAID:
Perhaps that's why they shot JFK in the head with a conventional weapon -- in order to frame the patsy.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Don't tell me you actually believe the head shot WAS caused by Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano??!! I didn't think ANY Internet CTer believed such a thing!
(I'm going to faint.)
CLIFF VARNELL SAID:
Settle down, David. I mentioned "conventional weapon" -- there are conventional rifles other than a Mannlicher (somehow it seems strange to have to point that out...)
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Yeah, that's what I thought, Cliff. I knew you didn't believe the fatal shot came from LHO's gun. Very few (if any) Internet CTers actually accept the truth about Oswald firing the fatal head shot. I was just playin' with your make-believe theories.
But it's nice to see a post from you, Cliff, that DOESN'T revolve around the shirt and coat. That's kinda refreshing. :)
Also....
I guess, therefore, Cliff, that you must think the assassins who fired the "high tech" shots into JFK's throat and upper back were not even intending to kill President Kennedy with those two rifle shots, correct? And that's why they didn't aim at JFK's head with either of those shots, right? They merely wanted to wing him with TWO separate non-fatal blows to the upper body (and, as a bonus, they wanted to give the Secret Service a little bit of a heads-up about what was to come a few seconds later), is that it?
That was mighty nice of the "high tech" assassins to give Mr. Kennedy and the Secret Service a fighting chance that way.
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
...You are stuck with the ludicrous CE 399 and its magical flight path. Complete BS.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
There's nothing "magical" about the bullet's flight path in the least. And, again, CE903 proves that fact (regardless of the objections put forth by Pat Speer and James DiEugenio).
CE903 proves that no "zig-zagging" of the bullet needed to occur.
CE903 proves that the bullet's entry definitely did NOT need to be elevated up into the NECK of John Kennedy's body.
And, unless you want to call Lyndal Shaneyfelt a liar, CE903 proves that there was a straight-line trajectory path at circa Z210-Z225 that leads straight back to the only known source of gunfire that day---the 6th-floor Sniper's Nest.
Yes, the "Z210-225" angle was just an average angle between those two Z-Film frames, but can a CTer really think that Specter & Company could get THAT CLOSE to mimicking the Single-Bullet Theory and yet still believe the SBT is totally and completely impossible and not worthy of even the tiniest bit of consideration?
Given what we can see in Commission Exhibit 903, I cannot fathom how the above CTer mindset is even remotely possible (or desirable).
JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
As per Mr. Gordon's illustration via John Hunt, from what I understand, the new analysis coming out in November [2018] by Larry Schnapf will also show a steeper angle of declination.
And again, I am glad Mr. Gordon brought this issue up.
I challenge anyone to stand about two blocks from Dealey Plaza and look at it from a side angle. No objective person can look at that view and then visually measure the angle of the hit from the sixth floor to Kennedy's back and say that the angle of declination is what the WC says it is.
I happened to do this by accident one night. I was returning to my hotel which was about two blocks from Dealey Plaza and as I was walking in the front door, I happened to look over at the plaza which was off to my right side.
It is simply not possible. The true angle is much closer to what Frazier marks above, and also to what the Sibert-O'Neill report says was the angle in JFK's back bullet channel. Because remember, if you buy the WR, the bullet that went through JFK went through nothing but soft tissue.
As Mr. Gordon notes above, the Single Bullet Fantasy is a political proposition. It is completely indefensible as a forensic concept.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
You don't know what you're talking about, Jimmy. You're just spitting out theories about steeper angles just to hear yourself talk.
The exact angle measurements were taken by surveyors in Dealey Plaza on May 24, 1964, when the WC and FBI performed their assassination re-enactments. The exacting measurements are revealed on page 106 of the Warren Report.
But Jim D. thinks all those detailed measurements about the angles are nothing but LIES spouted by the WC, right Jim?
And Jim must think that Dale Myers just made up his own set of figures too (via Myers' "Secrets Of A Homicide" project). All of these figures are just lies too, right Jim?
In short, DiEugenio (as usual) is blowing smoke (and a lot of hot air).
PAT SPEER SAID:
Why is it that you assume Myers, working at home, and presenting no corroborating photos taken from the sniper's nest, got it right years later? Because...? He told you his work was precise and exact?
And you believed him?
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
In one very important and key way, Dale Myers' computer model is much BETTER than the Warren Commission's 5/24/64 re-enactment in Dealey Plaza itself.
Why?
Because Myers' model is locked in (frame by frame) to the actual film of JFK's assassination---the Zapruder Film. And what better VISUAL source for the assassination could you possibly get? (Notwithstanding, of course, the alterationists who continue to believe the silly theory about the Z-Film being a fake.)
Dale Myers explains the "Key Framing" process HERE.
JAMES R. GORDON SAID:
YOU say that until it [the SBT bullet] strikes the rib, the bullet trajectory is 17.72º. As I pointed out, that might work, but the rib is likely to be the 4th rib rather than the 5th.
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
As always with CTers, everything is Oh so close....but never quite close enough to even consider the POSSIBILITY that the LNer's conclusions could be true.
Quoting a fellow LNer....
"When [conspiracy theorists] look at the evidence, anything involving [Oswald's] culpability is "almost, but not quite". He can almost make this shot, but not quite. He can almost make it downstairs from the 6th floor in time to encounter Baker, but not quite. He can almost make it to 10th & Patton from the boardinghouse in time to shoot Tippit, but not quite. So close, but yet so far, as kooks judge things." -- Bud; June 18, 2006
And Bud could have added this one too....
The trajectory angle of the bullet depicted in CE903 is almost correct, but not quite. Specter's rod almost intersects Kennedy's upper-back wound, but not quite. And the angle through Connally's chest is almost correct if JBC's fifth rib was struck by the bullet, but not quite. It's so very close, but never close enough, per the "Never Say Approximately" conspiracy theorists.
~sigh~
David Von Pein
June 26-28, 2018
June 26—July 7, 2018
